Jane Mayer, David Grann, and Patrick Radden Keefe on the Importance of a Good Villain.

About this episode

<p>During the 2023 New Yorker Festival, three legendary staff writers got together to discuss the craft of investigative journalism: digging for information like detectives, and then presenting it in a way to rival the best thrillers. For each of these writers, the “bad guy” —whose actions usually set the story in motion – needs to be presented in three dimensions; trusting the reader to grapple with that person’s perspective is key to an engrossing story. “I look at these big, boring issues often, like economic inequality or corruption in politics,” <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/jane-mayer">Jane Mayer</a> says. “You take a subject like campaign finance – the Citizens United decision and how it’s corrupted politics. If you can find somebody like [Charles or David] Koch and explain there actually was a billionaire behind so much of this, and he has a story, and he has a family, and there are always screwed-up fathers and sons involved in these families. . . . It means that you’re able to explain the ethical choices people make.” Mayer is best known for her book “<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-History-Billionaires-Radical/dp/0307947904">Dark Money</a>,” about the Koch brothers; <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/david-grann">David Grann</a> wrote “<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Killers-Flower-Moon-Osage-Murders/dp/0307742482/">Killers of the Flower Moon</a>” and “<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Wager-Tale-Shipwreck-Mutiny-Murder/dp/0385534264/">The Wager</a>,” both <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Wager-Tale-Shipwreck-Mutiny-Murder/dp/0385534264/">best-sellers</a>; and <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/patrick-radden-keefe">Patrick Radden Keefe</a> covered the Sackler family’s opioid dynasty in “<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Pain-History-Sackler-Dynasty/dp/1984899015/">Empire of Pain</a>,” and a murder during the Troubles in Northern Ireland in “<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Say-Nothing-Murder-Northern-Ireland/dp/0307279286/">Say Nothing</a>.”  They were joined by their editor, <i>The New Yorker’s</i> <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/daniel-zalewski">Daniel Zalewski</a>.  </p><br/> <p>Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.</p>